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they continued to help russia if they sanction use. well, i think this is, this is one area where she has to play it quite cautiously. again, as we said they're, they're very good at the same things cautiously and i'm letting things right and not taking a position either way. why, of giving tacit approval say to russia, but it is an area, it's already having difficulty with the export of micro chips in the us. and another technology that could have jewel use for that to help support russia and start watching to warrant beijing about this. haven't they? yeah, and it and then the call and said during the french visit that the china had said that it wouldn't do as button again. but although that was one remark that seemed to just about phrase after he was added, i think of, of course he'd say that so they are, it is something they do have to be careful of by bus. i think playing the longer game at the moment, or seeing a lot of evidence, for example, have come of them. you've got the 2nd resources. there's ways of getting in through the united arab emirates or through the or other countries in the middle east. is

ways around us, so it, but they do need to be careful yet and it talks to what do you say? i mean for letting me posted it when he looks at these sanctions that are being imposed by the west to be almost laughing all the way to the bank is and he because he's got a allies there. he's got customers like china or india, for example, to buy his energy. it yeah, but it, it still doesn't make up for the loss of the energy from europe. you know, obviously it's welcome, but it wasn't until unless they put another gas pipeline, you know, a power of separator it too, but i didn't think the chinese are and then they have in the any hardy to, to have another pipeline built. and the chinese drive a very hard bogging on price and they get, but it isn't the key is to get to the point of opening the previous, you know, the fast power stop areas. gas pipeline is a johnny is to say that it mentioned that i today either did the, the,

was there any mention of this pipeline at all today? no, no, they didn't. i think there was a, she's press conference and pretends press conference and fruits and told about energy and so on. but i didn't see she talking about that. so it's interesting to compare, you know, on the kremlin website you can get the read out the transcript to the g. i press conference and then the transcript to the corresponding one. but put in and see what they talk about, you know, the doing that slightly different to put an emphasis on slightly different things as well. or we've got a lot of questions coming is you're not, i'll get for this one to you. um, clifford about ty one and you was asking is tie one be be coming maybe the west, berlin for, for china. you know, that west berlin was for the soviet union in the united states in this 2nd cold war if you will. yeah,

it's very interesting. this power loud here and people are saying that if, if the us or if the west wants to back taiwan, that is going to have to build a kind of a berlin wall across to taiwan straits. and it's really gonna have to commit at the moment. there's a lot of, um, you know, there, there's obviously some material support and, and quite a lot of political support. but although the political support has again limited and it could, it could very well happen that, that taiwan becomes this kind of, i post. i'm particularly um, i'm particularly to do, we have russia in china to keep keep this closeness in some ways it's going to be slightly isolated on there, but it is in the eyes of she's in pain. does a rush i have to win in ukraine force for him to be certain that an invasion of tie one will be successful will be worth it. so um, i don't know. i think i think he's in some ways it would also suit him to have the wes tied up with, with dealing with ukraine. in some ways. it's also kind of

a distraction in some ways explicitly another win win for china. because if, if they get, if, for example, russia prevails in, in the ukraine, um, that would be seen as a blow to the west and make it less likely, perhaps to intervene in, in, in taiwan, on the other hand, the west attention is very much focused on something that it sees very much its own back yard. taiwan is a long way away and increasingly looks isolated because it's western, when the us, which doesn't really like looking overseas to begin with is a push. it will look to you or a but taiwanda seem very far away, so it works both ways. natasha. what, what would you, if you were a fly on the wall in this meeting here between the agency and bottom. important can, can you imagine that pushing whispers to children paying you know, make, listen, you've got to help us win because if we lose here, you will lose until i want. yeah. um

yeah, i mean they're obviously very different in terms of the, you know, military strategy and, and so on. i mean, clearly an invasion of tribal on is very different to a new invasion of a huge land mass like you, craig, and um so um, yeah, i mean, i'm not sure whether there's any kind of agreement about taiwan. and the thing is, i don't really know what russia could to huge amount to help china, you know, in terms, militarily, i don't see russia being able to really, to help china. i mean, a thought from just sitting back and letting it happen. so. so yeah, i, i mean, clearly, you know, russia, it's no rush of what i can facilitate if

you like, china's chinese actions in taiwan. i've got a question coming in here from a queue to get touch you talking about, or maybe a comment. china and russia are so important for bricks, the bricks, countries, but can briggs survive? should this marriage of convenience? not last, natasha. i mean, what's your take on that? does briggs does it need this? um, this marriage of convenience between beijing and boston. i mean, i mean, spill honest, i think the brakes, i didn't think rupture is really that important in the brakes. i mean, certainly not economically and nothing russia has, has from the beginning tribes to kind of mold the bricks into something much more political. whereas the sunset is that, you know, the other members of the grouping with the,

including china would prefer for it to remain more of an economic grouping. what about china? clifford? i mean, there is probably here, there's this push for the breaks countries to, to actually take as much world trade out of the dollar zone as, as possible. yeah, i mean, i think that i think trying to use bricks a little bit like a memorandum of understanding in a way that you sometimes get between farms that they, they like to have the agreement. and they would like to provide an economic framework. but it doesn't really do that much beyond dosh, and i think that the dollar eyes ation is something that's very appealing to non western countries right now. in particular, as we've seen, that russia has suffered a little bit from being taken out of the swift payments. this payment messaging system on chinese banks are, are cooperating with the russian version of it now. but the de dollarization thing, it's still the dollar is still proving incredibly strong when it comes to international trade. so um i think that i can't really see how short term it's

gonna change something like a pick up on that. we're getting a comment. i'm asking about the risk and your, the coupling. and if, if the west is the risk getting itself from china, what about shining from the west? has china already be begun? the coupling it's economy from the west? i mean, it's biggest trading block now is what se, asia, right? that's right. but it's, it's still very heavily reliant on the markets in uh, in uh, in the west. and i think you've seen somebody come some decoupling. i mean, do you do risking in terms of it producing its own? does that mean conductors and things like that? but it's still is usually important. i mean, that's why we have these towers at the moment, for example, that the biden is just introduced there and, and the sort of anger that they've produced in china because china is unable to sell a lot of its own goods. it has massive over capacities. i'm just trying to shift them to western markets as well as obviously as soon as you mentioned, but, but still i think the west is should be important for the chinese requote some

comments and questions too about the future for china. it's a demographic challenge that the situation today for its economy could look much worse. 2030 years from now. yeah. china is in this, in a strange position that way, i mean, in japan, you have the demographic to the demographics that you got, cliff where it, it, it obviously got old very fast, but japan got rich before it got old, where as china is getting old and it may not get rich before it's got to get out. i mean, the economy has grown, but it's not well distributed and it doesn't have the structures in place. so i'm trying to quit phase a real democratic problem. it's actually a question for you about what, what a reputed would like our share of reality to be a i. e. he would like russia to have the reach that the soviet union once had it, is that it's an accurate assessment. i think he would like it,

but i mean, i think he's, i think haven, he probably realizes that's not actually going to happen. um, you know, i mean, i think i'm okay, let's put it this way. i think he likes the facts that i at you know, the large number number of people in the west believe that that's his, his aim. i mean, that's in itself is useful to him. so, you know, we kind of do tend to magnify, think russian power. but well, as i sure times may be too much, well, you say that, but um, we regret their comment from our question, from flip flop trader, saying, according to what you're saying, russia only has 2 customers for its oil. but those 2 customers are china in india, which account for about 3000000000 people. so how can you say that that's not enough to compensate for the black. um because um, they're not getting but still not replacing the energy revenue that they had from

europe. that doesn't, it's not enough that you know, and so on or in india, or no reliance on the rupture of coal, so called russians. just one of many you know, many sellers of oil. i mean, trying that has of a diverse energy or failure or, you know, supply as you know, they understand about energy security. they, they're not gonna put all their eggs in the russian basket. and um, yeah, rough, it's earning some hot currency, but it's not enough. and the rest has to be aware to the fact that there, there's enough oil out there on the market right now. right? it'd be some, even if china, china is buying from russia, but it doesn't have to write it. there are other sources. we're not, we're not in an oil shortage. no, it's not cleaned. china doesn't, and the buy from russia. so, i mean, china is very clear that it doesn't want to, you know, any country, most countries you know, don't want to rely on the one supply. ok,

i've got some time i think for one more question, we've got a question coming from chamberlain sion asking, how can the european union make on china serious or convey to china that in serious about coming back and support for russia? clifford but i think would be, you generally has is, is economic leverage. and i think of it uses the fact uses the sanctions that we mentioned earlier that that it would face to, to, to try and reinforce this thing. that if, if it is stepped up to support for russia, military support becomes genuine, military support then sanctions would be, would be the price to pay. but, but beyond us, whether there's the political will, is, is another question again. all right, i'm looking at the clock here and we looks like we're out of time, but i want to thank our guests, a clifford, as well as natasha in london. it's been a great conversation and

a big thank you to all of you out there have been watching and have been sitting as of questions and comments without you. of course, we would not be able to do this, and don't forget, you can get all the latest news and information around the clock on our website. that's d w dot com for all of us here in berlin. thanks for watching. we'll see you next time. right here on youtube, the

schools, the winning the we say never giving us the most exciting sport stories about people passing and visualize every weekend dw, get ready for an exciting auburn, toyota look surprised. i wish i'm ready to dive into the hands of human to you.

have you have a window of quote on that. we've got a response on the on expected side. so slide the why or norway in the us ahead on carbon caps, run storage. and what is it exactly, both countries benefit from the technical know how of their oil and gas industries? was it tech is found in germany, usa in norway are investing heavily in this little region. government has just bought this old model to projects. was 80 percent funded on our regions aren't more technology or domestic then the germans, on this edition of transforming business will explore white. and brad like norway heidelberg materials began re bouncing a cement factory last year. they're installing

a c c s plant without disrupting daily operations. determined company wants to launch the world's 1st net 0 cement produced using carbon capture and storage. here's how it works. an industrial facility like this one and brand vegas separates and captures the c o 2 from its smoke stack emissions to c. o 2 is liquefied and shipped to a storage location and then it's injected through a pipeline up to 3 kilometers under the c bed. it's a deep sandstone formation to c o. 2 can also be stored on land and transported by truck rail or pipelines. the c o 2, some traffic will try by 300 nautical miles to are you garden, then it will be injected into a pipeline and stored off the norwegian coast of the storage facility is called northern lights. it belongs to shell. total energy use and ecuador will return to the role of oil and gas companies laser. so why is it so hard to produce

demand with that carbon emissions? is the main ingredient also an estimate. and in the killed process there's a lot of students who coming out of the livestock this is yeah and toilet and he's a 30 year veteran of the cement industry. we try it about to, to reduce the amount of blinker in. so that's, that's a decreasing factor, but there is an image because at the moment you will some, and will last but the form anymore. you will not have to create the list which has the forms that, that it needs so that there are technical limits. c, c s technology is intended for use in cards to a base sector is like steel chemicals and the cement industry. industries at toms completely eliminate carbon emissions. but why is the heidelberg materials coming

all the way to norway for this? to find out more, we have to go to germany. c. c. s. technology is bound here. economics minister who about topic wants to change this. he also paid a visit to private. but 15 years ago, things looked a lot different in german states like states, the hardest time people took to the streets against c c s, including well that topic, member of parliament, the laser environment administer in that space comes in on v and my number in this context is detroit style events. it's a s i go to, it's i upside and watched by showing this computer order. i didn't didn't know john . he's attached nick in deutschland. goodness strategies, all right, sounds fun. you've got to, you've just got to you had to order. so i didn't see it on smiles of my nose this time. so why i ask since detection, nick, is i'm fused to invite under control of my nose to see if i can see shop. norway

introduced stacy as far back as 1996 in good part due to the countries mazda of oil and gas industry. the petroleum industry accounts for 36 percent of norway's tax revenue. it's what helps make of the country rich. but norway was also a 4 runner in implementing environmental protection standards. what happened that really incentivized or kick started the history of, of c. c, as in norway was a c o 2 tax that was introduced by the labor and government that was in charge in 1992. this is political scientist during this nor do she says some norwegian politicians realized early on the climate protection with key incentivize the oil and gas industry to to take measures. uh, and i think also they quite early uh, saw the potential for ccs in their production to take emissions down. right.

because they didn't want to have to pay this tax, at least not more than necessary. norway is now investing some 1500000000 euros to develop a complete c c s value chain. the long set project. think this would be if i'm to ship the page that they are interested in to make money off the stars. this is felix showing it piece studies, european climate policy. so they are really asking for, you remember states do you want to export c o 2, we have the capacity here. we have the technology. northern lights is parts of this project. the new c o 2 storage facility belong to sell total energy is and echo north, which we mentioned a moment ago, is due to go online in 2020 for the companies have partnered with a norwegian governments. they'll receive subsidies in the development phase on the

1st 10 years of operation. the goal job creation as well as a lucrative business and c o 2 transport and storage. industrial partner, hydro back materials is also profiting from the new technology and the general subsidies that will help revamp this facility. norwegian government has since bought it. all part of the project was 80 percent funded. the only investment is a few $100000000.00 investments. the graphic is just one of about a 114 facilities operations by high those back materials. one of the world's largest concrete manufacturer, if they're planning to invest some 1500000000 bureaus by 2030, including in the u. s. that's also because president joe biden's in place and reduction us offers financial incentives to companies that invest in carbon capture and storage. it's important to mention that they have a tax credit which makes them or increments and then incentive to to deploy

ccsp inflation reduction act. the strength of these tax credits and extended them so they really use it as one of the instruments to, to push all, all calm management in 2023. the largest number of c, c, s facilities were under construction in the u. s. followed by kind of the u. k. china and norway on this map to pick the commercial ventures that are already in operation. but why is to us so advanced in this area is also important that they don't really have this discussion about how to evade emissions, at least not the way we have it in germany. so you'd ask, you could also capture fossil, see you to a story underground to find out more. let's take a look at what's called enhanced oil recovery uh, technology that's being employed mainly in north america for more than 50 years.

high pressure a, c o 2 is injected into an oil field, raising the pressure under grants. the crude oil becomes more viscous. i'm can be pumped to the surface more easily. so it's a way to pop up even more. oil doesn't really make sense to collaborate with big oil when it comes to climate protection. so they know all the systems warnings that we have, the expertise of the technology. this is carlos bottom on the g o scientist as a well known experts on c c s technology and therefore protection. so they are tools a trouble staunch operation. but the norwegian, so i think they'll call it can be the only ones that we're really going for. but then we'll go through a scale. a survey has shown that the norwegian population supports dfcs. as mentioned, they've been using the technology since 1996. and they have a carbon tax 67 percent of norwegian support seats. yes. that top

by denmark, the you k and followed by the netherlands. and finally germany, origins are more technology optimistic, then adjustments. and we also think that that's something to do with the support for the specific technology after that during this nor to helps conduct the survey which also came to a 2nd conclusion. when we introduced these elements of cross border cooperation or trade and support drops, we did a similar survey. uh 5 years ago. them that dropped was considerable in our way. it moved from or a 2 percent support when you introduce them to a domestic situation where you store your own c o 2 to 40 percent 20, to introduce them to a project where you would import c o. 2 from other countries. um, it's likely that's what germany would have to do. export c o 2 to norway. remember

a c, c s was previously taken off the table after protests and demonstrators had one big objection. thing, most of the criticisms some 10 years ago austin, germany came from the shack that ccf was originally planned for cooked photos on the street. so it was so cold paul plans and then the treatises was okay, if we to successful co paul pens, we've never got to transition to germany has no proposed legal changes that would permit safety yet. but only in the northeast, northeast on lines and subsidies will focus on sectors of like steel and cement, where some 10 percent of emissions are classified as hard to a base search here, c c s. so captioning and storing the emissions. it's pretty much the only option, but we have to avoid the solutions. this is jessica cash play flop the physicist

studies c c s on the other carbon management strategies. the boss majority of scenario that she dealt with mean temperature, where they don't typically see need sees yes. but what are the risks? fine to say. so i'm a 150000000000 tons of c o 2 could be stored under the north sea, a region that includes a number of marine protections own by way of comparison, the mid sized cement plant and breath attempt to capture 400000 tons of c o 2 annually bought if there's a leak because possible. and the biggest problem, probably the old waltz, the work if we go back to mall c as an example, have something like 17000 welts that have to be drilled in the past both and lost the traits posted to look for oil and gas. and it's also want to see what,

what these old wells, recent them was about maybe a pathway. so seem to be in touch, but it's something that needs to be considered. let's recap. countries like norway have been on board with dfcs for quite a while. they have a big technological edge under subsidizing p c. s on the ground scale. that's also true in the us under, by norway under us, also benefit from the know how up there, oil and gas industry. germany still has to legalize t c. s mice, export c o 2 to norway. one thing is for sure the technology is expensive and it's not with that risk. but at this point, do we really have a choice? what this important from my perspective is should launch these risks and mitigate them as good as we can. and then also compare those risks of using c. c. s to the risk of love to use exist yet because also what we're not doing has impacts. in

this case, if we don't use c, c s, that means we accept more emissions which needs to work time of change. so we provide perspective the risk of not using c c s exceeds the risk of using it. do you think c c s technology is the wave of the future? that is know in the comments the the we experience the way down is pure adrenaline. 100 percent. no. my name is 133 and i live in water main. federal shellfish harvester lives on the gateway to a world of plenty. portland, the man of the cliff in 15 minutes on the w to the point.

strong opinions. clear positions, international perspective, every showing of russia's military leadership suggests pollutant is digging in for a long range and plenty to harness for the russian economy to do so. what does this mean for ukraine under on board mentioned losing ground in the northeast. join us this week on to the point to the point in 19 minutes on d, w. conflict crises was every single connection mapped out shows the geopolitical reality. beyond the board is what makes things to the way they are mapped out, navigating a changing world. now on youtube, the

dw news live and from berlin, israel in the dock at the hey so definitely guys try to, she had to day to do, i just kind to identify the ongoing general side at the international court of justice in south africa demands that is real immediately cease operations in gossip . also coming up the residential building. it was struck by a glide woman just about 20 minutes ago. our corresponded with this is the devastation russian forces unleashes. they tried to gain ground.

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